2021 Season - UK Episode Discussion

[Slade]

21 hours ago, H&Alover said:

Depends on your definition of bad.  Piroivc was a career criminal as were the guys behind the drug cartel that ultimately  killed Robbo so definitely bad, their ability to tell right from wrong was lost long ago and they didn't care who they hurt.

I didn't actually use the term 'bad', I was quoting your post.  I was originally disputing Jasmine's previous statement that Lewis was a good man.  And that still stands.  A good man doesn't kill three innocent people and attempt to kill a fourth regardless of their circumstances.  But sticking with bad I don't believe in this particular case Lewis's personal circumstances necessarily excuse him from being bad.  You could argue there are lots of people that have been in similar or worse circumstances than that and they don't go on to commit murder.

 

21 hours ago, H&Alover said:

Colby had been a mostly good cop, until he came across Ross again, if he hadn't come back into his and Bella's life maybe he'd still be a good cop.

You made a similar comment like this before, when I blamed Tori (as I have done repeatedly) for allowing Lewis to work with Christian i.e. if Christian hadn't been at NDH then Lewis wouldn't have committed the murders.  The fact remains that Christian was there and Lewis did commit the murders.  The same way Ross did come back into Colby's life and Colby did murder him.  What ifs aren't relevant here as they introduce any number of unknown scenarios - Please refer to the butterfly flapping its wings and causing a tornado.

 

21 hours ago, H&Alover said:

I'm not excusing him for killing those patients

Really?

21 hours ago, H&Alover said:

but he wasn't in his right mind, he was on a quest  or that is how he saw it

I think we're all in agreement why Lewis committed the murders but as I mentioned above in this post, other people have the same or worse circumstances and don't go on to kill like he did.  I don't think Lewis is the devil incarnate and I don't think he's beyond redemption.  I just don't like the way the show has made him out to be the victim with Jasmine harping on about his mental health purely because of what happened to her and Christian feeling sorry for him and ignoring the patients that have died because he feels guilty about Lewis's wife/baby.  And the one person who did actually make sense, Tori was so self-righteous, she came across as unreasonable.

Following on - I didn't like the way in Wed's episode the focus seemed to be again on poor Lewis.  Jasmine talking about how bad things are for him.

Good thing Bella was able to get Nikau to relax although he's going to have to stand on his own two feet re future photo shoots.

Initially I wasn't sure if Chloe was really a good influence on Ryder (although I am enjoying her bikini scenes).  He wasn't displaying his usual responsible attitude regards to work/money etc and she seemed to be encouraging him to go to Salt just to wind Mackenzie up.  But despite his loyalty stubbornness she did talk him into trying to get his job back multiple times.  Can't really say I can blame Mackenzie not wanting to take him back though.  Whilst I think her choosing a side remark was unreasonable, I think not responding to her texts is grounds to refuse to allow him back at Salt even though technically he's probably right that Mackenzie can't fire Chloe just because she doesn't want to be around her.  I have been a lot more impressed with Chloe since Tane told her about the miscarriage although (like Tori re Lewis) she's not taken ownership for the fact that she was partly responsible even though an Ari/Mia reunion was pretty much inevitable anyway.

"I'm not saying I don't believe you...I just don't have a frame of reference for it" - You' don't believe Christian's near death experience Tori!  Although I'm not surprised Jasmine does given her response to the initial Tarot readings off Marilyn.  I have to agree with Irene's 'piffle' remark.

I actually figured with Jasmine they just wanted to move some of her interactions with a younger age group so she's less out of place.  With the Tarot scene, she was talking with Irene/Roo/Marilyn.  In contrast she's now interacting with Ziggy/Mackenzie/Tane/Dean.

Until Jasmine pointed it out to her, Ziggy was completely oblivious to how she was coming across.  Not only was she neglecting Tane and making him look silly but I would even go as far as saying she was flirting with Dean.  It's unintentional because she's not that sort of person but despite taking onboard Jasmine's advice she goes round to Dean's, takes a framed picture of the article of them winning the surf comp, has a drink and spends time with him, even talking to him about Amber.  I'm not keen on exes being mates (partly because I believe in not being friends with someone you fancy) although it's different if both parties have moved on.  But these are immediate exes and it is starting to reach the point where they are taking the ****.

I guess we could all see it coming but I was disappointed with Mackenzie trying to hit on Tane.  I do have to admit though the lead up to it was amusing.  The way she was flirting and then said "There was a time when you wanted this".  Tane closed his eyes during the kiss - He still wants it.

 

[CaptainHulk]

I  often forget about Irene's one-line exclamations of BS.

"Piffle!"

"Rot!"

"Pigs'!"

And so forth...

[Red Ranger 1]

I found Ziggy hard to like in that episode, which I suspect wasn't the intention.She had legitimate reasons for talking to Dean where Mackenzie was concerned, but choosing to spend the evening at Dean's place and presenting him with a framed photo of the two of them knowing Amber was going to be home was either a deliberate attempt to cause trouble or woefully naive. I actually wanted Amber to hit her, but I guess she did that last year so she got in early. I actually didn't find her telling Tane she loved him particularly believable, she just seemed to say it without really thinking about it. Mackenzie is rapidly burning bridges and didn't help her cause with her dismissive attitude towards Ziggy but I still feel a bit sorry for her. Her hiding from Dean was kind of sad.

Leah seems to have turned John into a convert to her cause, while Justin is probably thinking fondly of the days when she wanted to pretend it didn't happen.I did like their little meal out.

[pembie]

Ziggy just says she loves whoever it is she’s dating at the time I feel it doesn’t really mean a lot 

[H&Alover]

Who can honestly say how we'd react if we were in Lewis' place and he had the advantage,  for want of a better word, that he was a nurse and in  an unique position to kill patients.  I still come back to the argument that he didn't get or accept the help he should have got when it happened, those around him must have seen the effect the deaths had on him so where were they?  

is it bad to say Ryder was too sexed up so not thinking clearly?  Chloe was unaware at the time of urging Ryder to get his job back, of the real reason why Mac fired her .  She was sympathetic  when Tane cracked and told her the real reason and was able to see it from Mac's point of view. Ari and Mia took the decision to give their relationship another go even if Chloe set them up. One more person in on it then, only ones who don't know are Ryder and Nik. 

Not everyone can get their heads round an experience like Christian has had, he was in doubt before when patients have told him they had an out of body moment, they are doctors so in a way scientists so look at things more logically.  Now he's had one, it's no surprise he's more open to it. 

 

[Slade]

21 hours ago, H&Alover said:

Who can honestly say how we'd react if we were in Lewis' place and he had the advantage,  for want of a better word, that he was a nurse and in  an unique position to kill patients.  I still come back to the argument that he didn't get or accept the help he should have got when it happened, those around him must have seen the effect the deaths had on him so where were they? 

I still come back to the argument, most people in Lewis's position would not react by murdering innocent people.

Well, Tane didn't deny not liking the kiss when Mackenzie asked him.  Objectively, I think he's a gentleman so even if he wasn't with Ziggy, I still don't think he would have allowed things to continue because of the state Mackenzie was in.  I guess that's proof Mackenzie was jealous of Amber.  Given that he was prepared to keep Mackenzie losing the baby from Ari, I wonder if he and Ziggy hadn't agreed to be honest with each other whether Tane would have told Ziggy.

Can't really blame Ziggy for throwing Mackenzie out TBH.  We know her stance on cheating given what happened with Jarrod and Brody and she went out of her way to help Mackenzie, especially to the point that she didn't want to go to her own home because of the state Mackenzie was in a lot of the time.

Ziggy very much reminds me of a couple of girls I knew in the past.  They preferred hanging around guys because they found other girls too bitchy or high maintenance.  And it does seem to be that Ziggy is a lot more comfortable around the male characters than the female ones.  She is definitely saying all the right things to Tane and I do agree about Ziggy using the l-word but I think it's fair to say she was genuinely in love with Brody given that she married him and probably Jarrod as well.

The problem with Amber is (as Ziggy said) she is insecure so that has led to the paranoia.  When I saw the preview, I was on Amber's side but I think if someone came up to me on the beach they way Amber did and started throwing accusations around, I wouldn't be very pleasant about it either.  This whole scenario with Amber has been extremely predicable to the point where she's kind of accelerated it herself in order to not prolong the inevitable.

Still enjoying Justin's remarks, especially to John turning up in the morning to discuss Suzy with Leah and her continued pursuit.  I do admire Leah's determination and dedication though.

[H&Alover]

As you said Slade, most people.  Either he refused help or people didn't pick up how badly he had been effected.   

It could be argued and probably will be, that Tane didn't realise the depth of his feelings for Ziggy until Mac launched herself at him which would be another reason for him  to gently turn her down. The 'old' Tane might have gone there, but he's matured since he's been in the bay and is in love for the first time, he was in lust with Mac and maybe the fact she was sort of Ari's girlfriend had something to do with it.  I'm glad he told Ziggy first and she didn't hear it from Mac.  

I don't think Ziggy thinks she is doing anything wrong by being friends with Dean, it's his feelings Amber is worried about and it looks like she has reason to be. Ziggy was in love with Dean too, it was a slow burn from friends to a couple and they were together for over a year, they discussed the possibility of children,  until the no brainer of him being involved with Ross' death. If that hadn't happened they could well still be together, though she would have Jai to be a kind of step mum to.  We never really discovered how she would have handled that. 

Amber had been second fiddle to Willow in the past so you can understand her feeling it's happening again, but now she has Jai to think about,  Mac's comment just fed into her paranoia.  

Leah managed to hook John then despite his initial reservations.  I thought she had calmed down, but it's revived her search with a fervour. I can see why Justin is concerned, it's taking over her life, and as he pointed out look what happened last time she went dashing off to meet someone who 'needed' her help.  As has been discovered Susie has been playing her game for a long time. 

It is laudable that she is so determined but she's ignoring Justin again and the fact he still doesn't look right.

 

[Red Ranger 1]

Alf's episode count this block:None, but it was explained where he was.

Which, in a roundabout way, leads me to my frustration at Channel 5 having the blocks out of synch, so what was clearly meant to be a big end of week exit gets shoved in on Monday.They were so good for so long, apart from the episode rationing last year they've been in synch since 2008, and now it's like they don't care.I know, first world problems.

As for the exit...it was downright weird, frankly.We seem to have accelerated from Willow congratulating them on being a solid family unit, to them breaking up just a few weeks later.The reasons do make sense but very little else does.I was disappointed that Amber apologised to Ziggy, who really has been acting like the third person in their relationship recently despite having a relationship of her own.I was glad she got some screentime with John and continue to lament that the show never let her and Jai move in with him.But it feels like on the one hand it's being written as this is them leaving for good, and on the other hand they're just down the road and insisting Dean is still going to be Jai's dad. So...is Jai going to be visiting him occasionally? Is Dean going to be popping off to see him off screen? Are he and Amber never going to see Jai at the same time, is she never going to come to Summer Bay again?

And really...what now? Amber and Jai going leaves Dean a bit isolated, the last one standing of that new Mangrove River lot with few connections other than Mackenzie, sometimes Bella and at a pinch Ari. And of course Ziggy, who might be flinging the L-word at Tane but whose behaviour around Dean is increasingly strange: Apparently him covering up Ross' death means she won't date him but hanging out at his flat drinking and laughing like two old friends is fine. Which is a rather specific deal-breaker.

To be honest, I think Justin's overreacting, or possibly worrying about the wrong thing. Instead of being concerned about Leah being obsessed, he seems to have decided that everyone on the internet is evil and if she listens to them, she'll be kidnapped again, even if John's with her, Give me a "Huh?"

[Slade]

21 hours ago, H&Alover said:

As you said Slade, most people.  Either he refused help or people didn't pick up how badly he had been effected.

Most people even without help and regardless of whether they had been affected would not have done what Lewis did.

So the Ari and Mia love saga continues.  I'm pretty fed up with them already and also Mia strutting around like the sun shines out of her backside.  Ari wants to try for another baby...surprise, surprise - Never saw that coming!  Can you imagine if Mia did get pregnant - Mackenzie would hit the roof.

I agree with John wanting to know what Leah's end game is with regards to Susie.  Not sure if he's the best candidate for confronting Susie with her as I feel he is still susceptible to Susie's manipulation.

I respect Dean for being an honest, straight up person and what you see with him is what you get.  I guess when Ari was offering Dean advice about being fair on Amber he was basing that on his situation with Mackenzie and finishing with her because he wanted to be with Mia.  He was right though.  You could probably argue that the 'smart' thing to do in this scenario if Dean wanted to have as much contact with Jai as possible was to tell Amber what she wanted to hear when she asked if he still loved Ziggy but that just isn't him.  Although I think Dean was wise to give her one last night as at least they've ended on amicable terms.

I was surprised Amber apologised to Ziggy.  Having just finished her boxing session, Ziggy was ready for Amber this time and I actually don't think Amber could take Ziggy in a fair fight.  Whilst I did feel a bit sorry for her, I do think Amber brought this on herself.  By her own admission she didn't follow her gut.  We could see that despite how she felt about Dean shortly after she returned, she was pretty reluctant to get involved in anything because she knew he wasn't over Ziggy.  But the emotional side took over and she decided to move in and engage in a relationship.  She knew how Dean felt and that he was motivated by Jai more than anything.  Assuming her aim was to play the long game and stick it out until Dean's feelings for Ziggy diminished, this didn't work as she got fed up quite quickly.

It's funny that she claimed to Dean that neither of them were happy (Dean was actually happy to have Jai and was fine to have Amber to continuing this) but I don't think Amber has actually been happy since I've seen her in the Bay.  So you would think from her perspective, half of something is better than all of nothing.  I don't think Amber is doing what's best for Jai.  She's moving away because she can't handle the fact Dean's in love with Ziggy.  Although she has been better about it this time around.  I just hope she keeps her word and ensures Dean has access.

I also liked the scenes with John and Amber and do like how consistent they've been.  It's funny because when Amber first left I was glad but my attitude towards her has changed and I'm disappointed this time round.  I do think without Dean she's pretty redundant.  When they paired her up with Mackenzie it felt weird and John/Tane are the only other people she gets on OK with so it would be hard to integrate her.  Jasmine is in a not too different scenario but she gets on a lot better with other people than Amber does so the random parings work better and are more believable.

[H&Alover]

Yes most people don't, but there are always, sadly, going to be the ones who fall through the cracks. Plus most people aren't nurses who have access to drugs.

Is that your new phrase for the episodes we see as they are not a 'proper' week? It is a bit disjointing at times.

The Amber/Dean storyline has ended pretty quickly, thanks mainly to Mac suggesting she, Amber, was second best in Dean's eyes/heart to Ziggy.  She had been happy, well as happy as Amber could be, she never seemed a totally happy soul, until that toxic idea was planted. She did think her and Dean stood a good chance of being a family and maybe he would realise he did love her after all.   They were pretty relaxed around each other, having a laugh, reminiscing about the old days, looking towards the future. 

Ari was a good friend to Dean, he saw he was in need of an ear to bend and gave good advice.  Dean likes Amber a lot but he's not in love with her  so he shouldn't be sticking with Amber just because of Jai, that hardly ever works, Jai would pick up on the atmosphere which as other parents who do just that 'We're staying together because of the child/children' thing learn to their and the kids cost.  It could easily turn toxic and cause Jai a lot more hurt in the end, having mummy and daddy turn on each other. I get that after the last couple of times when Amber went off on one, there was the danger he'd never see Jai again, but he had to bite the bullet and tell her the truth, which she'd already guessed, Dean could have denied it, but the truth was in his face and eyes, a hurtful but honest talk.  Better end it now, while they are still friends at least and the parting was on good terms, after one last night together.  Sad little scene of them on the beach when they jointly broke the news to Jai that mummy and daddy didn't love each other the way some mummies and daddies do so mummy and he was were going to live with granny.  They also made sure to stress he had done nothing wrong and they would still see each other, I'm guessing Francesca lives in the school catchment area so he won't have to move schools again.   Typical little kid question "Will we still all be going to MovieWorld?"

Quite poignant seeing Dean walk into an empty flat, look at Jai's photos, sit on his empty bed. 

While Ari was offering his advice to Dean John was offering his to Amber, shame they got so few scenes together this time round and he'll miss his little mate. I'm still disappointed she and Susie never met, Amber would have had her sussed in five seconds flat. I was wondering if John was acting as advisor in lieu of Alf , but then again John had a lot more contact with Amber than Alf did. Whatever he said, worked because she did apologise to Ziggy, having, I think, worked out she, Ziggy, wasn't aware of Dean's feelings for her.  It certainly left Ziggy and Mai bewildered. 

Mia seems to have become Ziggy's new confidente.  Wouldn't really work with it being Mac, even if she was sober and hadn't just tried to snog Tane's face off, he is still Ari's brother.  Both Ari and Mia are of the opinion for Tane to be saying the L word has to mean he is serious as he's never been known to say it before and not something he would say lightly.  I'm not convinced either about Ziggy saying it back, I think she likes him a lot, he doesn't have baggage - apologies to Jai - like Dean does, hopefully he's shed his real bad boy image.  But if she doesn't mean it, it could really hurt him. 

It is only a lead Leah has on Susie, but some small comfort she does have John with her so not risking getting kidnapped this time, because  as Irene pointed out Susie could be violent. Justine

 and Irene should know trying to talk Leah out of something once it's in her mind is useless.  

Good point about Jasmine and Amber and how they relate to others, Jasmine is a more outgoing character who does get on with people a lot more easier, where Amber was less trusting and wary of others.