Would the controversial retcons have worked better if the details were changed?

[adam436]

I know many fans (including myself!) hated the Martha and Marilyn retcons in recent years, but I'm just wondering would you have been less offended if the details were changed? 

The Marilyn one would have worked better if she had given birth after her split from Donald, rather than Phil. In that situation, it wouldn't have made a mockery of her whole journey to get pregnant in the nineties, and when she returned in 1995, it was implied she had only recently separated from Phil, rather than a year or so earlier. Other than perhaps hiring a younger actress, it wouldn't have really impacted the overall story too much. 

With Martha still being alive, the biggest upset for me was that Alf's whole marriage to Ailsa was a lie. If the story had to happen, it would have been more in character for Alf to have confided in the truth in Ailsa, and her agreeing to keep the secret. She knew better than anyone the need to want to run away or escape from a situation, so would have sympathised with Martha, and after the fallout from Alf learning that Ailsa was in prison, it makes him look like a hypocrite. Instead, Ailsa was just completely forgotten from the show story and it would have only taken a few throwaway lines to change that.  

It's just minor details, but it would have made all the difference to me. 

 

[j.laur5]

I think bringing back Martha would have worked better if they did it years earlier. Then she could had more character potential. I think the problem with Martha was there was not a lot of potential for her character since her character was a retired age character. Take Neville and Floss for example they retired characters and they were axed because they just didn’t have any character purpose other than randomly helping Tom and Pippa around the caravan park or Floss helping Pippa in house or helping Ailsa at store . 
 

Colleen worked at the diner until she was in her 70s as that gave her purpose and I guess she had purpose of being show busybody. Colleen could be a trouble maker at times with her talking rumours about people. She did have a nasty side to her character  as was with Gypsy and did bring comic relief to show even though at lot of times it did seem more awkward than funny . 

 

[hapitoby]

I think both could have worked especially the Marilyn retcon with a few tweaks. It seemed obvious very little care was put into it.

I made some examples of how it could have been slightly improved...Heather could have been the daughter of Phil or the offscreen Marilyn got with and still had revenge in mind as she blamed Marilyn for spliting up her family. Very similar to Penn Graham wanting revenge on Alf in 2010. I'd prefer a repeat of that storyline 12 years later with a few tweaks than what we got. Again she could have been the daughter Marilyn had an affair with while working as a nanny in London. It would fit in line maybe a year after Byron died and she couldn't deal and the family forced her out/got custody rights off her etc. and Heather felt abandoned because the family still feel apart over indefinitely and Marilyn also had abandoned her (albeit forcefully).

 

The Martha retcon would have been better had it been one of Alfs sisters -preferably Morag but Cornelia passed away around this time so maybe Celia- or maybe Barbara or we finally meet Debra. I don't know or she turns up out of the blue or contacts Martha junior. It just ruins Alfs character and his marriage to Ailsa just seems like a fraud.

The Irene and Mick retcon didn't really annoy me but it's unfortunate they only thought short term of Mick.

[adam436]

6 hours ago, hapitoby said:

The Martha retcon would have been better had it been one of Alfs sisters -preferably Morag but Cornelia passed away around this time so maybe Celia- or maybe Barbara or we finally meet Debra. I don't know or she turns up out of the blue or contacts Martha junior. It just ruins Alfs character and his marriage to Ailsa just seems like a fraud.

That's a good idea! I don't think it could have worked with Morag anyway, because Martha's "death" meant that Morag could no longer provide money to the Simpsons. From memory, Martha was essentially the go-between for Morag and the Simpsons, and neither knew who the other was. Debra was a blank canvas, so nothing to lose there, and Barbara had that dodgy nineties story, so I don't think it could have done any more damage than that. 

 

6 hours ago, hapitoby said:

The Irene and Mick retcon didn't really annoy me but it's unfortunate they only thought short term of Mick.

I agree - the retcon itself didn't bother me, it was more the fact that the producers chose to create a son for Irene only to make him such an abhorrent villain. I guess from the writers perspective, if they really wanted to expand Irene's family in the cast, they still have Nathan's and Finn's family anyway (was Damien still a priest the last we heard?). I never got the point - he raped Billie, but given the baby and VJ were gone within a year or so anyway, it seemed like a waste. There was a potential to perhaps create a dynamic between Irene, Ash and Leah as they raise Luc together, but the writers didn't go down that path. 

There seems to be a trend of creating/using relatives for long-term characters and making them either villains or unlikable: Roo/Kieran, Marilyn/Heather, Irene/Mick, Justin/Ava. 

[CaptainHulk]

Damo was still a priest  as mentioned to Bella by Irene in 2019.

[cymbaline]

On 18/01/2024 at 12:51, hapitoby said:

I think both could have worked especially the Marilyn retcon with a few tweaks. It seemed obvious very little care was put into it.

I made some examples of how it could have been slightly improved...Heather could have been the daughter of Phil or the offscreen Marilyn got with and still had revenge in mind as she blamed Marilyn for spliting up her family. Very similar to Penn Graham wanting revenge on Alf in 2010. I'd prefer a repeat of that storyline 12 years later with a few tweaks than what we got. Again she could have been the daughter Marilyn had an affair with while working as a nanny in London. It would fit in line maybe a year after Byron died and she couldn't deal and the family forced her out/got custody rights off her etc. and Heather felt abandoned because the family still feel apart over indefinitely and Marilyn also had abandoned her (albeit forcefully).

 

The Martha retcon would have been better had it been one of Alfs sisters -preferably Morag but Cornelia passed away around this time so maybe Celia- or maybe Barbara or we finally meet Debra. I don't know or she turns up out of the blue or contacts Martha junior. It just ruins Alfs character and his marriage to Ailsa just seems like a fraud.

The Irene and Mick retcon didn't really annoy me but it's unfortunate they only thought short term of Mick.

Both of your Marilyn retcons are streets ahead of what they came up with and would've worked better. If I was to go for either option, I'd choose the second. Marilyn was in a bad place after Byron's death and very far from home. It's easier to envisage her having to give up a baby in the UK, where she was more vulnerable than she was back home. She was always a car journey away from Summer Bay when she was with Phil. 

If you really wanted to mess with people's heads, you could invent a scenario where Marilyn had break-up sex with Flathead when they met in London and have him as Heather's father..

With the Martha story, wouldn't it have been simpler to have just never found her body? They assumed she was dead and had a funeral. Martha washes up onshore but is unconscious and comatose. Nobody knows who she is for a while, and because it's the 1980s communications aren't what they are now. When she comes to, she isn't sure she wants to go back to Summer Bay and stays away. Or if you want to mess with time as they're wont to do, you could have Martha recovering from her accident and finding out that (1) Alf has remarried and (2) Roo has moved to America. So what is there for her in Summer Bay? 

Edited January 26 by cymbaline

[hapitoby]

12 hours ago, cymbaline said:

Both of your Marilyn retcons are streets ahead of what they came up with and would've worked better. If I was to go for either option, I'd choose the second. Marilyn was in a bad place after Byron's death and very far from home. It's easier to envisage her having to give up a baby in the UK, where she was more vulnerable than she was back home. She was always a car journey away from Summer Bay when she was with Phil. 

If you really wanted to mess with people's heads, you could invent a scenario where Marilyn had break-up sex with Flathead when they met in London. 

With the Martha story, wouldn't it have been simpler to have just never found her body? They assumed she was dead and had a funeral. Martha washes up onshore but is unconscious and comatose. Nobody knows who she is for a while, and because it's the 1980s communications aren't what they are now. When she comes to, she isn't sure she wants to go back to Summer Bay. Or if you want to mess with time as they love to do with young characters, you could have Martha finding out that Alf has remarried and Roo's gone to America. So what is there for her in Summer Bay? 

I actually had about 5 or 6 in my head when the storyline happened. Marilyn could have been the catalyst on an affair for a marriage breakdown while as a nanny but still dealing with the grief over Byron so I don't think it'll tarnish her character especially if they made her remorseful or ignorant to the situation - The family could have abandoned her and she moved somewhere else in England (it's basically a blank slate from 2000-2010) and she didn't realise till years later. The family could have moved away and Marilyn lost contact in the early 2000s (easy back then). The could have even told her Heather died offscreen which is why she moved back to Summer Bay in 2010 (retconned her real reason). I think Marilyn losing a child and moving to the UK then believing to 'lose' a child then and moving back to Australia (basically after Mitzy said she's one year to love) would have been way better for her arc of loss to come full circle. Her shock to one of her kids being alive who have been better. granted we'd still have to excuse how she didn't mention heather but she didn't anyway in the version we got and the end result was way worse.

And exactly what you said..there's ten years of a blank slate where Marilyn was grieving and then had cancer and returned to Summer Bay believing she was dying within the year. Also she's very far from Australia while in the UK and didn't have Donald or any other support.

Yes I like your Martha ideas. I think there's probably ten way to do each retcon right and 1000 to do it wrong...depending how much care is out in. The actors did a fantastic job.. especially Irene and Mick but I'd the plot is written in crayon then...well we have to accept what we get...

[Homeandawayfan.]

These retcons in H&A make any previous retcons looks well done. Although Sally having a twin brother and Don and Morag being Bobby's parents were not retcons but crafted storylines.

The Martha, Irene and Marilyn retcons are blatant retcons and the Martha one just trashed Alf's character. Alf just kept quiet about it for decades.

 

 

[adam436]

9 hours ago, Homeandawayfan. said:

Although Sally having a twin brother and Don and Morag being Bobby's parents were not retcons but crafted storylines.

The other big one from the early years would be the Ailsa/Shauna one. Not controversial, but I think the issue was that the dates seemed to be fudged a bit. From memory, Ailsa went to prison as a teenager and served three years, which would have been the late 60s/early 70s, which didn't match Shauna's age. It probably didn't help that Duncan's age had shifted either. I think the disappointing factor in this story was that Judy Nunn left so soon after, so we never really got to see that relationship develop long-term. 

 

9 hours ago, Homeandawayfan. said:

the Martha one just trashed Alf's character. Alf just kept quiet about it for decades.

Rewatching 1988, it's actually pretty bad. I can't remember when he was supposed to have found out about it (wasn't it a few years after her disappearance?), but Roo really needed her mother during the whole pregnancy story and he came across as a hypocrite when he found out Ailsa didn't tell him about being in prison. And Martha disappearing essentially led the Simpson family to fall apart too, since Morag didn't know where to send the money. 

As I've mentioned, it would have been less insulting had Alf told Ailsa the truth and they both agreed to keep it quiet. Ailsa would understand more than most the need to escape/start a new life. Instead, it's an insult to long-term fans who watched Alf and Ailsa's 12 year marriage onscreen. 

[cymbaline]

19 hours ago, adam436 said:

The other big one from the early years would be the Ailsa/Shauna one. Not controversial, but I think the issue was that the dates seemed to be fudged a bit. From memory, Ailsa went to prison as a teenager and served three years, which would have been the late 60s/early 70s, which didn't match Shauna's age. It probably didn't help that Duncan's age had shifted either. I think the disappointing factor in this story was that Judy Nunn left so soon after, so we never really got to see that relationship develop long-term. 

They didn't have to fudge the dates with Shauna. We know that after she left prison, Ailsa was a drifter who never stayed anywhere for long. The years between her leaving prison and settling in Summer Bay are a blank canvas and include when Shauna was born. She could easily have gotten pregnant by a man who didn't stick around or was somebody she didn't want to have in her life. With the lifestyle she had at the time and how she tended to cut and run, giving her baby up for adoption would make sense. By the time this storyline came about, Judy Nunn had checked out in her head and was heading for the door. I wonder if she'd have pulled them up on this needless revisionism if she was still invested in Ailsa?

 

19 hours ago, adam436 said:

Rewatching 1988, it's actually pretty bad. I can't remember when he was supposed to have found out about it (wasn't it a few years after her disappearance?), but Roo really needed her mother during the whole pregnancy story and he came across as a hypocrite when he found out Ailsa didn't tell him about being in prison. And Martha disappearing essentially led the Simpson family to fall apart too, since Morag didn't know where to send the money. 

As I've mentioned, it would have been less insulting had Alf told Ailsa the truth and they both agreed to keep it quiet. Ailsa would understand more than most the need to escape/start a new life. Instead, it's an insult to long-term fans who watched Alf and Ailsa's 12 year marriage onscreen. 

When you re-watch 1988 with this new knowledge, it makes you wonder how Roo's life would've turned out if she hadn't been put through the trauma of losing her mother, moving out of her childhood home and being spoiled by Alf. It's unlikely she would've been sent away to that boarding school or met Brett Macklin. It's a sliding doors moment but probably only for people who remember the original Roo. In the retcon I came up with, Martha's disappearance is her own doing, not Alf's. That keeps his marriage to Ailsa intact and makes him seem like less of a douchebag when it comes to his daughter.