Lisbon Treaty Rejected * PASSED ON 2ND OCTOBER 2009*

[suzannelgnz]

I can see a number of countries withdrawing from the EU pretty soon if things don't improve. Greenland was once in the EEC, weren't they? I know they aren't a country, but they still withdrew.

I wouldn't mind Croatia joining. But the thought of Turkey joining is just ridiculous. Armenia and Georgia also want to become members. Seriously, the EU should be for Europe and Europe only. I may seem a bit narrow-minded when I say that, but why don't we get China to join as well while we're are at it?

Although i'm not from Europe but have lived in Germany, and studied International Law i though i might say a few things.

I know for one there are a lot of countries that are disappointed with the decisions made by the EU, Ok there have been some very good decisions made over the years but there have also been some quite irresponsible decisions that have affected not just the countries but their citizens too.

Cal- I have to agree about the whole Turkey joining, I remember discussing this back in 2006, that if Turkey was to join, there was the likelyhood of the EU expanding into the middle east.The EU is supposed to be an international community for european states only.Maybe this should be incorporated into a statute of the EU.

If the countries didn't want the extra governing power that this treaty has given the EU, they should have made their intentions clear at the beginning, because once a country has signed and ratified(if need be) a treaty, there is no way around it

ie: They can't get out of it.

[suzannelgnz]

Since it's just under a month until Ireland votes on the Lisbon Treaty for a second time (and because we were talking about it in pols/intp yesterday), I thought that I would bump this thread to see if attitudes towards the treaty have changed at all.

[LauraPhilly!!]

I've just seen this page so Im going to just make a quick comment on what I think about the lisbon treaty and why I think Ireland should vote no again!!

Be aware that this is just my opinion and you can all disagree with me over this if you want!!

The Lisbon Treaty referendum was brought in already right??

The Irish voted no the last time!!

The treaty is not any different this time, in my opinion, so why would people suddenly vote yes!! It makes no sense!

Also I feel very strongly about abortion!!

For years Ireland has had referendum apon referendum over abortion and everytime the public have voted no! If the lisbon treaty was ratified in Ireland there would be a chance abortion would be made legal in Ireland!

If that happened, it would go against everything that the people of Ireland have ever stood for!

Fine making it illegal in Ireland still wouldn't stop girls going over to England and having there abortions there, but thats there choice! Thats no reason to make abortion legal in Ireland!

Enough said!

I'm off!

[-Kevin-]

Are these people stupid ?

We voted NO which pretty much means we don't want the Lisbon Treaty!!

Not vote no and then over a year vote again to see if you've shanged your mind.

I will be voting this time and I will be voting NO , just to **** them off

[Cal]

And one year on and I'm still a staunch No supporter.

Has anybody in this country seen the campaign signs? They're hilarious! The Yes side signs are completely UNTURE, and the No side signs are completely MISLEADING. For example, Yes sign: YES to JOBS, Yes to EUROPE. First of all, "more jobs" was on FF's manifesto back in 2007 when they were reelected, did they create jobs? NO. So ratifying Lisbon will not create more jobs. Another Yes sign from Fine Gael says something like: YES to ECONOMIC RECOVERY. VOTE YES. First of all, ratifying Lisbon will not make the GLOBAL DEPRESSION disappear. Second of all, we are still going to be in a recession in a few years time with or without Lisbon. Third of all, we will not be bailed-out if we ratify Lisbon because bailouts aren't allowed in the EU because of the Maastricht Treaty! (I think it was Maastricht, or was it Nice?) And for the LOVE OF GOD, we will not be left behind either if we vote no! I'm so tired of hearing "I'm voting Yes! I don't want Ireland to be kicked out!!!!!" - We're not going to be kicked out! The EU doesn't change if Lisbon isn't ratified. Okay, we pissed off the elites, but that's normal. Denmark did it in 1992, and the French and Dutch did it in 2005! THEY weren't kicked out! And I HARDLY think they'd kick Ireland out if they could because the EU has taken €200,000,000,000 worth of our fish stocks. (Yes, that's 200 BILLION EURO)

The No signs, which are very misleading, are these: [picture of men who fought for Irish independence] THEY FAUGHT FOR YOUR FREEDOM. DON'T THROW IT AWAY. Although it's true, ratifying Lisbon is only a step towards an EU state, a very BIG step though. Another sign is "€1.84 MINIMUM WAGE AFTER LISBON" - Again, extremely misleading! BUT, that would be true if you were a citizen of another EU state working in Ireland. The average minimum wage in the Eastern states is €1.84, but under Lisbon EU citizens' wage rights aren't protected, so they don't qualify for minimum wage in other EU states. Therefore, anybody who works in Ireland or any other EU country who isn't a citizen of that country isn't entitled to their minimum wage. This has been an issue for years, yet the EU aren't doing anything about it.

I'm not being biased here, but the No signs have more truth to them then the Yes signs.

Oh, and one argument I love from the Yes side is: "Lisbon will make the EU more democratic!" - Hardly. It's not democratic as it is, so I don't think ratifying a self-amending (in relation to existing policies) treaty is hardly "democratic".

I know I'm harping on about this now, but it's something I am so strongly against. But I need to say this: Voting Yes will make it easier for the EU to harmonise corporation tax because of what I mentioned above. The Council can change any existing policy without having to have a referendum in any state. This means they can easily change Ireland's very low corporation tax, which could lead to about 100,000 jobs loses if the MNCs can find a cheaper place to set up their companies.

Oh again, I must say this because it's something which gets me very annoyed: YES, I have read the Treaty. NO, I'm not stupid. And YES I am pro-European! If I have another yes voter saying "They voted No because they didn't understand it!" then I am going to jump in front of a bus because it is SERIOUSLY unfair. The Government who are trying to get a Yes vote didn't even READ THE TREATY. The EU parliament which voted against respecting Ireland's NO vote didn't even read the treaty!

The EU needs to stop!

[Siog Alainn]

I must admit I still haven't the foggiest about what the treaty is really about. I should probably get one of those explanatory booklets and have a look through because I'm eligible and registered to vote this time. Although I have to agree with Sexyluc, the temptation to vote no just to **** off the government is rather appealing.

It seems so stupid that the Irish were given the chance to have their say and decided against it (and by quite a large majority) only for their decision to be basically disregarded

[Cal]

I'm baaaaack. Expect strong views...

We had a talk about this in college last week. The organisation was apparently non-aligned and "unbiased", but the speaker was quite obviously a Yes voter. I'm not anti-Yes voter, btw. It was just weird to have it branded "unbiased" yet totally one-sided. One of the German exchange students asked what the negatives of the Treaty were, and the response was "Oh, I can't tell you that."

I have to admit there are a lot of good things in the Treaty, but there are many bad things that concern me. 1. There is no EU law which stops employers from underpaying foreign workers. I know Ireland signed that thing which means foreign workers in Ireland should be paid minimum wage, but it needs to become EU law so that it has to be enforced. 2. The new voting system will basically give the bigger States (ie. Germany, the UK, France etc.) a bigger say in EU law and foreign policy. Although it might be good for people in big states, it isn't good for people in smaller States (ie. Ireland, Malta, Estonia etc.). 3. The single European president idea sucks. I don't see the point and quite frankly I find it profoundly undemocratic. The president will be elected by the Parliament, not by the people of Europe. Yes, we elect the parliament, but if they're going to abolish the Rotating Presidency then the people should be able to elect - after all, it would be democratic to let the people choose. 4. The idea of a EU superstate is terrifying. The main reason I'm opposed to it is because it's Europe. It's far too diverse to be united. You can't expect 27+ completely different States unite without any problems. You'll have the Unionists up in Northern Ireland who'll have a cow, you'll have the radical nationalists of Poland and the Netherlands causing complete and utter uproar. 5. The Treaty abolishes the pillar system (basically, every pillar becomes one. Foreign policy, defense, economic etc. all become one big pillar). Although we can opt-out of certain areas, it still gives the EU the right to speak as one voice. I don't know about you, but if Russia or Iran do something which Germany, France, Italy don't like then we're dragged into it regardless of whether we agree with it or not. When the crap hits the fan, they don't think "Oh, the EU is being a gob****e, but Ireland are OK", they think "Oh, the EU is being a gob****e. Lets cut off the gas supply again". 6. The Treaty lets the Council amend the Treaty in relation to existing policies. One policy they can easily change (with unanimous agreement within the Council - won't be hard with the use of threats and bully-tactics) is the veto policy. Every State can veto something they don't agree with. This can easily be changed to "Each State retains up to 5 vetoes" or something. Dangerous!

I'm a lefty anti-EU raver, but I know it's something which can't be reversed so I have learnt to live with it. I know I'm going to be living in the EU and not Ireland. I know the EU will be one big country in about a decade. I know it's good for some and not good for others. What a will preach until I'm heard is that Norway and Iceland should stay well away. The EU will destroy them. Bye bye Norwegian fish and oil. Bye bye Icelandic fish and... yeah, fish is all they have, but still. I'm seriously considering emigrating out of the EU. I know that sounds so radical and stupid, but unless you've lived in a country with a ****ty Government who bully you while the EU bum them then you don't fully understand how AWFUL it is. Imagine if Australia had another referendum on becoming a Republic and people voted in favour of it and then the Australian Government turned around and said "No, you're voting again because that's the wrong answer." Wall Street was spot-on: "In some countries they rig the vote. In the European Union they keep asking until they get the right answer."

I know I'm ranting and repeating a lot of what I posted before, but I need to say this: Who the fugg do these people think they are when they call No-voters "stupid"? "Oh, the opinion polls showed that people didn't know what they were voting for." OH, so the "opinion polls" are now Gospel? The same opinion polls which surveyed about 6000 people out of the 2 MILLION who voted? The same opinion polls which show Yes voters voting for reasons not relating to the Treaty, for example "The EU has been good to us. I don't want Ireland to be kicked out of Europe. Yes because I support Fianna Fáil."? THOSE opinion polls? Would you prefer if I wiped your hypocrisy and ignorance from the map while I bend over and take it? I will not eat cake.

[Mrs Bishop]

Cal I have to agree with every thing you say I.m in the uk and we dont want the treaty here we are fed up with being told bye the EU what to do what to eat not what to eat why certain things cant be called bye the name we know them bye why should we let a bunch of foreingers Decide on what out countrys should go its NO NO NO all the way by voting no they cant win lets keep it that way.

[MACYLIGHTFOOT]

I don't want to get into a massive political debate here.

To Cal, I'll just say, if you've read all the impartial information on the treaty and understand it all, and think No is the best way to vote, then go ahead and vote No.

However I will say that the majority of people I know that voted No, did so because they didn't understand what they were voting for. I know you said you're sick of hearing that, but in my experience it's the truth. Personally I think if you don't understand it, don't vote.

Also, and I'm sure you know this, but for those who don't, the only reason we are being asked to vote when most other governments just went ahead and ratified it, is because in order for us to ratify it, we would need to change a small part of our constitution. When the constitution was originally written, it was included in it that no part of it could be changed without asking the people first. So for this treaty to be accepted we need to give the government the ok to change this part of the constitution.

As for Europe going on without us, it's not like they're going to say, ok well you can sit some stuff out and make your own rules. We'll be set adrift and I'm sorry to say it but we cannot survive without Europe. We'll become even more reliant on the US which for me is worse than being reliant on Europe.

I voted yes first time round, and I'll vote yes again.

What I wish would happen this time though, is for people to ignore all the political parties, all the yes campaigners, and all the no campaigners, to just read the information that is provided from the neutral organisations, to educate themselves on it and then decide for themselves what way to vote.

I've seen so many people who will literally overhear someone on the bus saying "oh we'll all have to have abortions and go to war" and that's what they're making their decisions based on!! It's shocking.

If everyone was properly aware of what they were voting for, I'd happily accept the No vote, but as it is I strongly believe that a large proportion of the No voters are people who don't know what they're voting for, or are simply voting against the government as some sort of protest.

[Cal]

I don't want to get into a massive political debate here.

To Cal, I'll just say, if you've read all the impartial information on the treaty and understand it all, and think No is the best way to vote, then go ahead and vote No.

However I will say that the majority of people I know that voted No, did so because they didn't understand what they were voting for. I know you said you're sick of hearing that, but in my experience it's the truth. Personally I think if you don't understand it, don't vote.

Also, and I'm sure you know this, but for those who don't, the only reason we are being asked to vote when most other governments just went ahead and ratified it, is because in order for us to ratify it, we would need to change a small part of our constitution. When the constitution was originally written, it was included in it that no part of it could be changed without asking the people first. So for this treaty to be accepted we need to give the government the ok to change this part of the constitution.

As for Europe going on without us, it's not like they're going to say, ok well you can sit some stuff out and make your own rules. We'll be set adrift and I'm sorry to say it but we cannot survive without Europe. We'll become even more reliant on the US which for me is worse than being reliant on Europe.

I voted yes first time round, and I'll vote yes again.

What I wish would happen this time though, is for people to ignore all the political parties, all the yes campaigners, and all the no campaigners, to just read the information that is provided from the neutral organisations, to educate themselves on it and then decide for themselves what way to vote.

I've seen so many people who will literally overhear someone on the bus saying "oh we'll all have to have abortions and go to war" and that's what they're making their decisions based on!! It's shocking.

If everyone was properly aware of what they were voting for, I'd happily accept the No vote, but as it is I strongly believe that a large proportion of the No voters are people who don't know what they're voting for, or are simply voting against the government as some sort of protest.

I agree with you, but I think it's a two-way street in most cases. I don't like it when people vote when they don't know what they're voting for, but the No side are being portrayed as arrogant and uneducated. The same amount of people voted Yes when they didn't know what they were voting for too, and that's my main gripe about the "opinion polls" because they're biased. No people say "I didn't understand it" whilst Yes people give reasons which aren't relevant like "Europe has been good to us". Both reasons are as bad as each other, so I guess that's where I'm coming from. EDIT: However, a person's vote is private and they can use it however they like. You and I may not agree with it, but that's the beauty of democracy. Also, a large chunk of the No voters voted No because we would have lost our Commissioner and this was true at the time. Thankfully, they have slapped on an amendment which has been submitted to the UN and is legally binding, so it shouldn't an issue this time round.

I also agree with you about how people should ignore political parties and campaigns. The campaigns on both sides are awful. I think using the Economy as a fear tactic is low (ratifying Lisbon won't get us out of the depression) and I think using the low popularity of the Government is low too (the opposition are for Lisbon, so it makes no sense). I know we have to have a referendum to pass Lisbon 2, but it's the fact that it's the same document is what worries me. I know plenty of people who think it's a bad Treaty for the smaller States (for the reasons I listed in my previous post) and that's why they want it changed.

One thing which has been proven is that we will not be "left behind". It's impossible as there is no such thing in past Treaties to allow this. Another No vote will only affect our reputation and maybe confidence, but that's it. We asked this question to the organization in College and they said that fear tactic is wrong and that people should stop spreading it.

As I said before, there is a lot of good things in the Treaty, but there are a lot of bad things too. That's why I'm not voting. I don't think I can make a decision where I'm basically torn, but I will always campaign for the negatives to be addressed as they will be bad for this country, and many others, in the long run.

PS. I don't want to get into a massive debate either. I've been doing it for a year and I just want Lisbon to go away. That's probably why a small part of me wants the God damn thing ratified so we don't have to keep hearing about it.