MIng Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 I couldn't recall the episode entirely, so was unaware that Kane was shown to have used force, That, of course, is beyond doubt rape. I just thought I recalled that no force was used, and that is what inspired s much debate over the storyline. If we as the audience were made fully aware that Kane used force on Dani, then why wasn't the case cut and dry, as it should have been? As I said, my memory may have played tricks on me because of the way the Kane/Kirsty thing was subsequently handled. But I am amazed that you think that Kane "wasn't aware". If Dani was forceful in her objections, before an during, how can he claim that he didn't realise??? Was he on drugs??? Is he mentally unwell??? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> She supposedly froze after she had shouted "No, stop, get off me". When she shouted that he didn't do much other than to hold his arms around her (standing up). So it wasn't like he had to put up a fight to have sex with her. That's why, IMO, he didn't realize he was in fact raping her (from Dani's point of view) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 She supposedly froze after she had shouted "No, stop, get off me". When she shouted that he didn't do much other than to hold his arms around her (standing up). So it wasn't like he had to put up a fight to have sex with her. That's why, IMO, he didn't realize he was in fact raping her (from Dani's point of view) Okay, I'm confused. I'm from the UK, and as far as I'm aware, once someone's said 'no' loudly and clearly, then if the other person goes on to have sex with them, it's rape. But I'm not Australian. Does 'freezing' count as consent in Australian law, even if the victim has already said no several times? I know that some countries are still rather old-fashioned when it comes to this sort of thing. One thing I will say to anybody who thinks that what happened between Kane and Dani is a 'normal' situation for first-time sex, and that Kane could reasonably have believed that she wanted it: get help. I don't mean that sarcastically at all. I'm one hundred percent serious. Get help before you end up seriously hurting someone (and probably getting yourself in a lot of trouble in the process), or end up getting hurt yourself. If you honestly think that it's reasonable to continue with sex after the other person has said no, then I think it's fairly safe to say you have a rather dangerous/unhealthy attitude to the subject. Again, I'm not saying this to freak anyone out or insult anyone. I'm being serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIng Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 I was just saying that she didn't put up a fight throughout the intercourse. Of course he should have realized that she didn't want it, but Kane didn't. I'm sure that if Dani had been fighting him the whole time, he would have understood. Dani didn't to wrong in not fighting him more, it just made it "less obvious" for Kane that he committed rape. Kane's probably learned from Scotty P that girls always says no at first, but in fact they really want it (or something like that). So when Dani stopped fighting him/saying no, he assumed she wanted it. But that doesn't make it right. It just shows that Kane wasn't an evil rapist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashirr-Leigh Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 I find it really weird and strange how so many people constantly make excuses for Kane!! If this is was a real life situation, I hope the reactions wouldn't be the same!!! Saying no once should have been enough for Kane to realise that Dani didn't want to do it.. the fact that she froze does not mean anything. It only shows that she was so frightened of him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIng Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 If you're talking about me I didn't make excuses for Kane. He was wrong. Of course one clear and loud (and frightened) "no" should be enough, but it wasn't for Kane. He simply didn't realize, and it's made very clear later. The Cure seemed to have gotten the impression that Kane had to fight Dani to have sex with her and in that case how on earth could the writers even think about pairing such a rapist with the victim’s sister. So I explained that she didn't fight him (except from half a minute in the start), but froze, and for someone like Kane that unfortunately wasn't a strong enough signal to make Kane stop. The bottom line is that Kane wasn't portrayed as an evil rapist aware of his act. He was a very messed up kid. That way they could go ahead with the KK storyline, because he really wasn't much different from many of the other kids that had been on the show through times; troubled, but still had a good heart. It's not an excuse, it's an explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashirr-Leigh Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 I wasn't just talking about you personally, sorry if it came across like that, but I'll take your point. The thing that I have a problem with is understanding that Kane didn't realise. In anyone's book, no means no. Even Kane.. troubled kid or not. Dani made the point perfectly in the mediation episodes when she asked him if he meant no when his dad used to hit him. Of course Kane's dad knew he didn't want to be hit, he just ignored him. The same goes for Kane. He knew Dani didn't want to have sex - ie. he realised - but just ignored it. I don't see how it could be any different to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIng Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 No worries. Just seemed you were referring to my post (among others). I still think Kane didn't realize. Mostly because of the talk he has with Fisher, and when he meets Dani in the corridor and tells her he's sorry and "I really didn't know". And I was trying to explain how that could be.. But you're entitled to your own opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashirr-Leigh Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 As are you. I agree that the writers wanted us to believe that, to believe that he didn't realise.. it's just that, in my opinion, I don't think that's possible when the victim has said no and tried to push the perpetrator away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Preston Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 One thing I will say to anybody who thinks that what happened between Kane and Dani is a 'normal' situation for first-time sex, and that Kane could reasonably have believed that she wanted it: get help. Please tell me you're not talking about me. Because I would find that annoying. Because I never once said that what Kane did was normal, or that it was a reasonable mistake to make. Absolutely not. In fact, the several posts I have made in this thread have been saying the exact opposite. I never once made an excuse for him, in fact I'm sure I'm pretty well known for the fact that I have never softened to Kane - never accepted that "he didn't know what he was doing" or "Dani led him on" - never. All I was basically saying was that the writers wanted us to believe that he didn't realise at the time, and I paraphrased some the articles I've read about date rape from the offender's point of view. Not being aware of what you're doing is not an excuse, and I never said it was. The thing that I have a problem with is understanding that Kane didn't realise. In anyone's book, no means no. Even Kane.. troubled kid or not. That's the thing though - rapes and sexual crimes happen because no doesn't mean no to everyohne. It's possible that all the male figures in his life told him that the woman always says no, but she doesn't mean it - meaning to him no didn't mean no. It should have, that's no excuse - but this is what the writers wanted us to believe about Kane. I guess I believe it, but it doesn't excuse KK for me. I agree that the writers wanted us to believe that, to believe that he didn't realise.. it's just that, in my opinion, I don't think that's possible when the victim has said no and tried to push the perpetrator away. Since the writers wanted us to believe that Kane didn't know, then we have to assume that during the rape something happened that made Kane not stop. Perhaps Dani did freeze after saying 'no', so once he ignored the initial protests (which still made it rape) there wasn't a strong enough sign to him that Dani didn't want it - perhaps because the protests stopped. I don't know, but please understand I don't consider this to be an excuse, I don't believe that Dani should've done something else to stop him or that Kane reasonably believed he was doing an OK thing. I'm not excusing what he did by saying this. Saying no once should have been enough for Kane to realise that Dani didn't want to do it.. the fact that she froze does not mean anything. It only shows that she was so frightened of him! I agree with you. It should have been enough, he should have stopped as soon as she said no, and no matter what Dani did after she said no, it's never her fault that this happened. Kane is completely to blame, he should've been made to pay for what he did to her. This is why I could never accept Kane in a relationship with Kirsty. Because I've never considered not realising reasonable, or a tragic history an excuse. Because no matter what the rapist believes, the victim's life is still changed tragically forever. That's why there's no excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 Please tell me you're not talking about me. Because I would find that annoying. Oh, don't worry. I'm not referring to you at all. I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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