Charlie/Angelo

[lollypop]

Okay I get the point you made about them not getting to finish their conversation.

However, what was Charlie supposed to do. Her daughter was on the verge of running off to the city and she clearly did not want her to go. Was she supposed to leave Ruby hanging so she could finish her conversation with Angelo? The problem is, if Charlie had decided to finish her conversation with Angelo, viewers, members on this boards etc, would have been complainin that she focuses too much on Angelo and not enough on Ruby and that she neglects her daughter. Which has happened A LOT. Especially during the six or so months that Charlie was permanently glued to Angelo's side.

See it doesn't matter what Charlie does she's always going to be wrong in someone's eyes. If she spends too much time with Angelo people are complaining because she's not spending enough time with Ruby. If she's spending time with Ruby people are complaining because she's not handling the situation right.

I still don't believe it was Ruby's fault for the break up. Angelo knew that when he decided to live with Charlie and Ruby that the women had a lot of stuff they needed to work through and that it was never going to be easy. You can't land the blame on Ruby just because her acting out conveniently matches in with Charlie and Angelo's problems. Firstly Ruby stopped acting out before any of Charlie and Angelo's real problems started and as far as we know, she didn't do anything rebellious in the six week time jump to cause it!!

Edited February 16, 2011 by lollypop

[Red Ranger 1]

Diving in...Apologies, Changelo Shipper, for jumping on the bandwaggon slightly, I did understand that you weren't saying Ruby had broken Charlie and Angelo up deliberately.But I still don't think you can blame her, although to be fair we don't know she wasn't acting up during the six week time jump:She and Charlie might have had a hug in the finale week but the premiere opened with them at odds again.But even if she was, that wouldn't have been a problem if Charlie and Angelo were a strong enough couple and were able to deal with the problem together.It seemed like they had a go at dealing with it as a family for a bit, then as soon as they hit a problem they gave up.

I think Charlie has now acknowledged that she and Ruby come as a package and shunting her off to Irene's so she and Angelo can be alone isn't an option.If they do give things another go, they need to include Ruby in the equation and work out exactly what the situation is, what role Charlie wants Angelo to play in her life and what role Angelo's able to play.The relationship needs to be strong enough to be able to survive the odd bit of misbehaving from Ruby.

[Changelo shipper <3]

Diving in...Apologies, Changelo Shipper, for jumping on the bandwaggon slightly, I did understand that you weren't saying Ruby had broken Charlie and Angelo up deliberately.

Thanks I appreciate that! :hug:

I thought all you guys would be pleased that I'd figured it out!

She and Charlie might have had a hug in the finale week but the premiere opened with them at odds again.

Obviously. This is Ruby we're talking about she just is an issue. She's a walking, talking issue and I mean that 100% seriously. I said all of this in my earlier post which is why it was sooooooooooooooooooo frustrating that it got deleted. Ruby seriously needs to get to psychiatrist A.S.A.P. I really mean that. She's not accepting the fact that Charlie is her Mum which is a massive problem. Whenever Charlie tries to parent Ruby Ruby just throws it back in her face. Anyway slight tangent, what I'm trying to say is that that's Ruby - to be at odds with her Mum. I don't know why TPTB are doing it this way. They've hardly done anything with the whole "Ruby's sister's her Mum and not her sister" thing IMO. O.K. nothing positive but that's kinda the same thing because Ruby should've accepted by now that Charlie's her Mum instead of defying her the way she does all the time now.

With hindsight I think that Charlie and Ruby should've spent more time together at Leah's exploring their new relationship. That way when Charlie moved in with Angelo and Ruby had to go too - I accepted this at the time and I was like 'Oh yeah Ruby's Charlie's daughter so obviously' Charlie and Ruby would've had a better mother/daughter relationship so it would've been easier for Angelo to play Dad and supporting Charlie in helping to parent Ruby when necessary too.

But even if she was, that wouldn't have been a problem if Charlie and Angelo were a strong enough couple and were able to deal with the problem together.It seemed like they had a go at dealing with it as a family for a bit, then as soon as they hit a problem they gave up.

I don't think that Charlie and Angelo just gave up as soon as the issue got really bad. That's really not like them and the relationship they built up since reuniting in May last year. Yeah Ruby was the main cause of Changelo's problems just because she was so blooming defiant of Charlie so how was she supposed to get used to Angelo as well. At the Informal Ruby said to her friends something along the lines of: "Well Angelo's not my Dad". I'm sorry but Ruby was the one that started reffering to all 3 of them as a family in the first place and that means that Angiepants™ was the Dad. Ruby can't then change that when it's not working for her anymore. But then again Ruby's not very nice to her Mum anyway - defiant, angry etc. so why should she treat Angelo in the role of Dad any better? I'm referring to the point when Ruby manipulated Angelo to ask Charlie to let Ruby go to the Informal and then got his head bitten off because of it. Yes Angelo shouldn't have fallen for it and yes Charlie had the right to be mad that he asked her on Ruby's behalf but if Ruby'd never manipulated and used Angelo in the first place then Charlie wouldn't have had to get mad and told Angelo to keep out of it and everything that followed etc. would she.

If you look at when Paolo came and all the problems he caused, Charlie and Angiepants™ solved them together but then again Paolo wasn't living with Charlie and Angelo was he. Charlie and Angelo were really strong and they could get through any problem until Ruby was living with them too. Then Ruby started using Angelo and Angelo was being there for Charlie whenever Ruby defied her parenting and maybe all that just got too much for Charlie and Angelo and try as they might they just couldn't get things back on track again plus Charlie's just not gonna sell her daughter out and abandon her is she.

I think Charlie has now acknowledged that she and Ruby come as a package and shunting her off to Irene's so she and Angelo can be alone isn't an option.

- Yeah about that - I didn't mean it like that. I just meant that Ruby can't be trusted not to use Angelo against Charlie and vice versa and Charlie and Angelo were just getting on a lot better when Ruby wasn't like the third wheel in their relationship, if you understand me, weren't they? I mean they were fine when they were living seperately i.e. without Ruby being a part of their relationship but then as soon as she started living with them everything went pear shaped - go figure. But then all this ties back to Charlie telling Bianca: "It's not an easy balancing act" doesn't it and Ruby didn't make it easy for Charlie or Angelo either did she. Yes I know that probably was not her intention but that was the effect. If Ruby had been more of a team player and more accepting of Charlie being her Mum and everything that involves then I think Changelo would still be the awesome couple they once were now.

I'm not attacking Ruby just because I hate her you know. I just don't think she's a very good person at all but she could help herself and in turn Charlie would be happier and then Angiepants™ too (if Changelo were still an item that is or for the next and forever time ).

However, what was Charlie supposed to do. Her daughter was on the verge of running off to the city and she clearly did not want her to go. Was she supposed to leave Ruby hanging so she could finish her conversation with Angelo?

I was just making the point that Ruby interrupted them. Not anything else, Ruby interrupted Charlie and Angelo and I was just making the point that Ruby shouldn't have interrupted. She should've come back later, after Charlie and Angelo had finished sorting things out so she wouldn't have interrupted them. Yeah, yeah I know Ruby couldn't have timed it and she probably didn't mean to interrupt but that's why I made the point of saying that's the effect it had - that Ruby interrupted them so Charlie and Angelo didn't get the chance to finish their conversation. That's all I was saying. Obviously things happened the way they did and of course Charlie was going to go and talk to Ruby - I'm not blaming Charlie for that. I'm just mad that Ruby interrupted. Anyway I just assumed that Charlie finished the conversation with Angelo and they figured it out like usual later on. But maybe they didn't because Angelo had to go to work and then life got in the way etc. And I think that's when things began to snowball.

would have been complainin that she focuses too much on Angelo and not enough on Ruby and that she neglects her daughter. Which has happened A LOT. Especially during the six or so months that Charlie was permanently glued to Angelo's side.

I've never blamed Charlie for how Ruby's turned out recently. O.K. there was one time - just after Charlie'd found out that Ruby got drunk and grounded her wayward daughter but then just basically ignored the issue. But even then I never blamed Charlie or thought anything too bad of her because Ruby was still defying Charlie's parenting and being rude and frustrating so I was more focused on Ruby's behaviour because her's was the worst of the 2. Re: " Especially during the six or so months that Charlie was permanently glued to Angelo's side." - that was just the way it was being written. Charlei and Angelo had just started going out again so all that stuff was necessary which by the way I loved!! But Charlie and Ruby had a long period before then to adjust to their situation but TPTB didn't help them. I think it's TPTB that have handled this whole"Charlie's the Mum" issue completely wrong.

they need to include Ruby in the equation and work out exactly what the situation is,

Yeah well they need to talk to Ruby then. They need to have a serious conversation and define Ruby's role as the daughter to Ruby as well. It's not just about Angelo finding a role to play in the family. He tried. Ruby was the one that messed up. Always.

what role Charlie wants Angelo to play in her life and what role Angelo's able to play.

Well Charlie and Angelo kind of already did that but then Ruby messed it up by using Angelo to get Charlie to let Ruby go to the Informal. It's all Ruby's fault. She just uses people all the time and when she gets her own way (Angelo saying he'll talk to Charlie) she silently applauds herself and carries on her perfect little life where she doesn't have to take responsibility for anything.

The relationship needs to be strong enough to be able to survive the odd bit of misbehaving from Ruby.

Come on it's more than just "the odd bit of misbehaving". You know? Ruby's just sooooooo out of order to Charlie all the time and that's not normal. You know that's why Dex was O.K. in the whole grounding situation - he knew he was beat so just lived with being grounded. Ruby kept pushing Charlie and Ruby used Angelo like her pawn when things didn't go the way she wanted so therefore Ruby just SUCKS end of story.

[lollypop]

I get the complication in this family unit. The fact is, Angelo is not and never will be Ruby's father. So she doesn't necessarily have to regard Angelo as a parent/father. However she does see him as a part of the family, although what part that is I'm not quite sure. They needed to define that role.

There has been more than one time when Charlie has failed to be there for Ruby as a mother. In fact, most of the year, Irene or Nicole were the one's drying her tears and listening to her problems while Charlie was off with Angelo. Which was a serious bone of contention among viewers for a good period of time during the last season.

Ruby may have used Angelo like a pawn over the whole grounding situation, but he should not have given in to her in the first place. He should have done the responsible thing, called her Charlie and consulted her over the whole thing instead of trying to play the good guy.

And Ruby didn't interrupt Charlie and Angelo. First of all Ruby didn't know Charlie and Angelo were having a discussion, she knocked and waited at the door. Secondly, Charlie chose to walk away from the conversation and Angelo did not try to stop her. So it's not Ruby's fault.

You keep slighlty contradicting yourself. You say Ruby isn't to blame but yet you keep trying to make it a point that whatRuby's has done has contributed to the break up.

Charlie and Angelo are grown ups. If they couldn't make their relationship work against whatever difficulties or troubles caused them to break up, then obviously they weren't ready to be in that relationship in the first place. It's their problem alone and nobody elses.

[Red Ranger 1]

To try and clarify what I was saying before, I was referring to when Charlie told Angelo she wanted him to take responsibility for Ruby and then changed her mind by the end of the episode.Fair enough, Ruby was wrong to try and get round Charlie by going to Angelo, although playing one "parent" off against the other is typical teenage behaviour.But Angelo shouldn't have agreed to help her:If he felt Charlie was being too harsh on her, which he seemingly did, then he was within his rights to try and change her mind but he shouldn't have undermined her by forming an alliance with Ruby the way he did.But the turning point was then Charlie responds by saying she doesn't want Angelo to be involved in Ruby's upbringing after all, whether because he didn't agree with her or because she thought he wasn't up to it.(Of course, things gets even more complicated when Charlie then decides she was wrong to ground her...)That decision effectively split the family apart, making Charlie and Ruby a family and Angelo just some guy that lived with them.

If you really want to, you can argue that if Ruby hadn't been around they'd have been all right.But if they weren't able to cope with her presence as a couple, then that's their failing.

[jldraw]

This has all been beaten pretty much to death but I wanted to say a few things about Charlie/Angelo/Ruby:

I'll make no bones about it, when Charlie debuted along with Ruby in 2008 they quickly became two of my favorite characters on the show. Even though I'm a guy their dynamic reminded me of my own relationship with my mother as she had me when she was quite young and we did a lot of growing up together. But as I've said before, ever since Charlie and Ruby went through the whole storyline when it was revealed that Charlie was Ruby's mother, they seemed to have sucked all the fun and energy out of Charlie. It's like it's not even the same character anymore and it seems over the past year with Charlie and Ruby it's been one big drama after another.

I've taken a hard line with Ruby and deservedly so. The character has developed a parasitic quality to it where it basically serves only to agitate the rest of the cast. There has been almost nothing appealing to have come from "Camp Ruby" over the past year. She has used people, done whatever it takes to get her own way and has displayed a very egocentric attitude all the while still being painted as a protagonist. The writers had a chance to do something magnificent late last year when Charlie and Ruby finally began to address issues in their relationship but instead that storyline only last for three episodes and Ruby was then put in the middle of another dramatic romance which is the last thing that needed to happen given what had happened to the character in 2010.

As for Charlie. She's just not fun anymore. I understand this is a soap and there needs to be a fair amount of drama but the character of Charlie used to have this youthful exuberance which has somehow become lost over the past two years. Instead we've gotten a steady diet of police officer Charlie, stubborn & pigheaded Charlie and depressing Charlie. Not a whole lot of fun to watch in my opinion.

I don't have all that much to say about Angelo as I think it's all been said already. The bottom line with him is from a creative standpoint, I don't believe the character was ever all that well written or defined and I believe this hurt him somewhat when they decided to make the character into a regular. I think it's something they continue to struggle with creatively to this day.

Edited February 22, 2011 by jldraw